The State and Future of Search Q&A with Danny Sullivan, Google Search Liaison

Vernon October 5, 2024

0 13 minutes read

The State and Future of Search Q&A with Danny Sullivan, Google Search Liaison

I had the excellent opportunity to interview Danny Sullivan, Google Search Liaison, about the latest Google search updates, AI Overviews, the state of search and the future.

Here’s a summary of the interview:

Danny Sullivan is welcomed to the interview, with appreciation expressed for his openness to participate 00:00.
A brief introduction of Danny Sullivan is provided, in case viewers are not familiar with him 00:09.

Danny Sullivan Search Background 00:11

Danny Sullivan has been the search liaison from Google for seven years, and prior to that, he had a lot of background in the field. 00:12
He started off as an SEO in 1996 and created a site called Search Engine Watch, which was later followed by another site called Search Engine Land. 00:17
After about 21 years of working in the field, he decided to retire but was later approached by Google to take on the role of search liaison, which he accepted after giving it a lot of thought. 00:27
Sullivan’s experience in the role has allowed him to see how things work on the inside and explain things better to people outside, bringing a lot of different perspectives on the challenges and issues in search. 00:43
With his context and experience from different angles in search, he is able to bring different perspectives on the challenges and issues that he sees in his day-to-day work and the feedback he receives from people. 00:51

The Big Brand Challenge in Latest Google Search Updates 01:08

Many people struggle with the latest Google core updates, which aim to give more visibility to helpful content created for users, not just for ranking and traffic, but some have seen affiliate-based or independent websites being negatively impacted, raising concerns about the ability to start new independent websites and their visibility in search results 01:10.
The ranking systems do not prioritize big brands over smaller ones, and determining what constitutes a big brand can be complicated and not necessarily useful 02:21.
The issue is not about being a big brand, but rather about providing the most useful, relevant, and satisfying information, and sometimes the systems may not perceive this from smaller sites as they should 03:45.
The core of the issue is whether a website has the most useful information, regardless of its size, and the systems are being improved to better recognize this 03:46.
While there are concerns about smaller sites being overestimated or under-rewarded, there are also cases where smaller sites are doing well and being successful in search results 04:32.
It is not the case that independent sites as a whole cannot do well, and small sites can be successful, but improvements are being made to better recognize and reward smaller sites 04:57.
Google aims to show a diverse range of websites in search results, including local companies and smaller brands, not just big brands, as seen in local searches where local businesses are often recognized and trusted by users 05:38.
Smaller sites that feel they haven’t developed their brand should focus on building it, as a strong brand can lead to external recognition and characteristics that Google’s ranking systems aim to reward, such as expertise, experience, trustworthiness, and authority 05:53.
Google acknowledges that its ranking systems are not perfect and can be improved, and some concerns about the current state of search are valid, but others may be due to a lack of understanding of how the systems work 06:41.
The disheartening trend of people piling on criticism of websites that have lost traffic, without providing constructive feedback, can be unhelpful, and sometimes the issue may be with Google’s ranking systems rather than the site itself 06:53.
One of the challenges in search is seeing generic publications with well-established brands taking the place of more specialized websites, despite not being experts in the particular topic, and using their brand recognition to “get away” with lower-quality content 07:46.
This trend can be disheartening for website owners who see their traffic being taken by less specialized sites, rather than by more comprehensive or better sites that offer more value to users 08:22.
The ranking system should not limit a website’s potential by categorizing it based on its initial content, as this can hinder its ability to grow and expand into new areas 09:01.
Websites should not create content solely to attract search engine traffic, as this goes against the scaled content abuse policy, which aims to prevent abuse and promote high-quality content 10:21.
The policy is in place to address excesses and ensure that websites are creating content for their audience, not just for search engine traffic, and to promote real expertise 10:52.
The ranking systems themselves should evolve to be the first line of defense against spam policies, naturally rewarding high-quality content and not instantaneously changing 11:07.
Changes to the ranking system take time to develop, test, and adjust, and concerns about the current system are being heard and addressed 11:23.
The goal is to further improve the system and potentially adopt a more balanced approach, which is a reasonable expectation 12:03.
The ideal balance in search results should be a mix of big and small sites, prioritizing the best content overall, regardless of the site’s size 12:11.
The goal is to show the most relevant content, whether it comes from a big or small site, and improvements are needed to achieve this 12:16.
In the past, there have been instances where a small site ranked higher than it should have, not because of its size, but due to limitations in the ranking systems 12:25.
These instances can be frustrating for searchers, regardless of whether the subpar content comes from a big or small site 12:37.
The ultimate aim is to make searchers happy with their search results, as this benefits not only the search engine but also the ecosystem that relies on these results 12:43.
Improving search results is in everyone’s best interest, as it supports the ecosystem that interacts with these results and promotes overall satisfaction 13:01.

The UGC Challenge in Latest Google Search Updates 13:09

The goal of giving visibility to user-generated content platforms is to provide firsthand user experiences in search results, but this also presents the challenge of ensuring the quality of the information shared on these platforms, which can be generic and lacking in expertise 13:38.
Many social platforms, such as LinkedIn and forums, are being ranked organically by Google, and users are seeking more authentic information from people with similar experiences 13:24.
The challenge lies in balancing the quality of user-generated content with the need to provide visibility to these platforms, as some of the information shared may not be high-quality or expert 13:51.
A significant amount of social information is being shared on closed platforms, making it inaccessible to Google, and this trend is particularly prevalent among younger generations who prefer social platforms over traditional search engines 14:18.
To address this issue, Google is working to show content from hundreds of forums, not just large ones, to provide users with more diverse and helpful information 15:17.
The value of experiential content from user-generated platforms lies in its ability to provide helpful and authentic information, even if it’s not from an expert source 16:06.
Google aims to provide users with more authentic information by showing content from user-generated platforms, as people are seeking to hear from others with similar experiences and value this type of information 16:46.
User-generated content (UGC) is shown in search results when it’s relevant, of good quality, or helpful, just like any other content, and it’s not limited to expertise, but also shares experiences 16:53.
Blogs are an example of UGC where the person may not be an expert on a place, but they’re sharing their experiences of having been there, and this can be useful for users 17:10.
It’s not a binary notion to show or not show UGC, and it’s acknowledged that sometimes UGC from forums can be embarrassing, but the goal is to improve and adjust the signals to get better information 17:43.
Even big places don’t have all the signals to determine what’s most relevant, and engagement or followers don’t necessarily indicate expertise 18:20.
Experience has been gained in looking at signals from across the web to understand what content is useful to show, and it’s a continuous process of adjusting and working on it 18:43.
Medical queries are a specific example where UGC can be useful, as people may find it helpful to connect with others who have the same ailment and understand their experiences 19:02.
It’s not about ruling out UGC entirely, but about figuring out where and how to use the signals to show relevant and helpful content 19:37.
There will always be work to be done, and examples will be found where the system can be improved, but the goal is to provide a better experience overall 19:57.
People are craving authentic content and are looking for user-generated content (UGC) because there is a lot of terrible content out there, often created through content marketing, which is not helpful to the target audience 20:16.
This type of content marketing involves creating pages for clients to be found for various topics, but the content is often not written by the actual expert, such as a local mechanic, and instead is written by an SEO, resulting in unhelpful and inauthentic content 20:35.
The reason people are looking for more UGC is that they feel more comfortable with it and believe it doesn’t have an ulterior motive, which is part of the adjustment that is being made to improve content 21:50.
The goal is to move away from generic content marketing and towards more authentic content that showcases the voice and passion of the actual expert, such as a local mechanic sharing their experiences and knowledge 22:35.
This type of authentic content is what people want to hear and is needed more, and it should be combined with UGC to create a better content landscape 22:56.
Creators who are already producing authentic and heartfelt content are encouraged to continue doing so, as their work is valued and appreciated 23:12.
Creators should focus on producing great content and not worry about SEO, as Google’s goal is to reward high-quality content and help creators stay focused on their core work 25:11.
A feedback form was created after the core update, which received 12,000 submissions from about 1,000 different sites that claimed they weren’t in the top results 24:17.
The submissions were categorized, revealing different types of audiences, including creators who do reviews, travel bloggers, and recipe sites, as well as those who are not genuinely invested in their content 24:44.
Creators who have their hearts in the right place, even if they consider themselves niche bloggers, are distinct from those who create content solely for financial gain and do not care about the subject matter 26:02.
Google aims to do a better job for creators who are genuinely invested in their content, but may not prioritize those who create low-quality content for financial gain 26:17.
The content marketing approach is more commonly associated with traditional SEO, which may be disconnected from the creator group that focuses on producing high-quality content 26:41.
There is an issue with showing content from actual creators, as it may limit the visibility of other content. 26:56
Nuance is a significant factor in this issue, indicating that there are many complexities and subtleties involved. 27:04
Different subgroups of people are involved in creating content, each with their own unique perspectives, goals, quality, expertise, and other characteristics. 27:12

The state and future of AI Overviews 27:20

Google has been testing AI overviews, which were first introduced to the public in May, and additional filters were added after a couple of weeks, but they were not widely seen until about a month and a half ago when they started to be showcased more for non-signed-in users 27:21.
AI overviews are still mostly informational, but some instances have started to include listicles with product carousels, indicating a shift towards more commercially focused content 28:10.
Google does not plan to provide stats from AI overviews in Search Console, similar to how they do not provide stats for featured snippets, as the company views these features as part of search and not worth breaking out 29:27.
The lack of reporting for AI overviews is due to the experimental nature of the feature and the potential for changes in the future, which could require retooling and redoing any reporting tools 30:10.
Feedback from users requesting reporting for AI overviews is being taken into consideration, and it is understood that users want to measure the impact of these features on their websites and traffic 30:30.
The introduction of AI overviews is similar to the introduction of featured snippets, which were also met with uncertainty and requests for more information on how they worked and how to measure their impact 30:48.
Concerns about featured snippets have largely dissipated, with people now more concerned about not being a featured snippet and missing out on the traffic they drive 30:51.
The term “AIO” is used internally and externally to refer to a new AI-powered feature, with two ways to access it: through Search Labs or by seeing AI overviews 31:26.
Search Labs provides experimental features, including AI overviews, which may not necessarily launch to everyone, and are denoted by a beaker icon 32:01.
The AI technology has potential for both generative AI and organizational features, such as understanding search intent and providing relevant results 32:38.
Organized search results can help users find what they’re looking for without needing to do more queries, by providing relevant information and honing in on their search intent 32:50.
AI overviews are constantly evolving, and when they become more stable, a blog post is typically published to announce the changes 33:41.
Experimentation is ongoing, even for users who didn’t opt-in to Search Labs, and new features may appear unexpectedly 33:51.
Google is testing various search result formats, including carousels, to organize information using AI technology, which may eventually lead to a more streamlined search results page without the need for labeled AI overviews 34:04.
The goal is to provide users with a natural search experience, as seen in an example where an HVAC technician used Google search and interacted with an AI overview without questioning its presence 34:38.
Google is cautious about providing granular information about the impact of AI overviews, similar to how they handle feature snippets, to avoid giving website owners too much control over search results 35:35.
The interaction with AI overviews is more engaged, and their impact is harder to assess, making it challenging for website owners to understand their effects 35:54.
There is a need for website owners to have more control over AI overviews, including the ability to monitor and opt-out of them without affecting other snippets 36:16.
Google views search results as a whole and is hesitant to provide control over specific types of results, but they have dealt with similar issues through snippet controls 36:52.
The current way to opt-out of featured snippets is to not have snippets or be more selective in shortening the amount of snippets displayed, but there are no plans to provide a specific opt-out for AI overviews 37:10.
The max snippet control allows website owners to have more control over the content that appears in search snippets, enabling them to choose a shorter snippet length or opt out of snippets altogether for specific content, without completely removing the possibility of getting snippets for their website 37:24.
Website owners can use data no snippet to prevent certain content, such as paywall content, from appearing in AI overviews, which can help address concerns about paywall content being replicated in AI-generated overviews 38:05.
Experimenting with a shorter max snippet length may potentially drop a website out of AI overviews, similar to how it works for feature snippets 38:29.
The only way to completely opt out of AI overviews is to use the no snippet control, which is a binary option that removes all snippets for a website 38:45.
There are currently no plans to introduce more granular controls, such as toggle options, for AI overviews, but this may be considered in the future 38:56.
There are no specific plans for AI overviews in Europe 39:07.

The future of Search and SEO 39:13

The future of search is always changing, with significant shifts such as the transition from desktop to mobile and the rise of voice search, and the current shift towards harnessing the power of generative AI 39:15.
The shift to mobile search has enabled people to search for anything, anywhere, at any time, and the next shift is expected to be driven by generative AI 40:16.
The power of generative AI is expected to help people better access information, including accessing websites that have that information, but this requires a supported ecosystem of websites 40:46.
SEO is not dead, as it is a profession that involves understanding how people seek information and helping them access the information that is available 41:31.
The fundamentals of SEO, such as understanding how people seek information and helping them access it, do not change and are not dependent on search engines 42:07.
Smart SEO professionals who think ahead about how people access information and how to gather and present that information will be fine, as they are not dependent on a specific search engine 42:28.
Feedback from users is welcomed and helps to improve the search experience, and it is appreciated when feedback is presented in a constructive manner 42:45.
The goal is to find productive takeaways from real examples and use them to make improvements, and people’s voices are being heard, especially those from sites that have been impacted by recent changes 43:01.
Not everything is perfect, but many searches are successful, and there are many successful sites, especially those with authentic voices that people want to hear 43:34.
There is a desire to keep trying to do better for a special group of sites, such as those with user-generated content (UGC), and to reward them more for sharing authentic voices 44:04.
People are encouraged to continue sharing their voices and concerns, but it’s also important to acknowledge that sometimes the same things are being shared repeatedly, and there’s nothing more productive to add 44:27.
The key is to focus on creating great content made for people, and if that’s being done, then the ranking systems will try to catch up 45:17.
Rather than trying to anticipate what the ranking system is doing, it’s better to focus on doing what’s right for the people visiting the site, and to ask oneself if the content will be liked by those people 45:51.
When in doubt, it’s best to ask if the content will be liked by the people visiting the site, rather than trying to guess what Google will like 45:57.
The goal is to create content that people will like, and that should be the guiding principle or Northstar for creators 46:05.
To be ahead of the curve, creators should not just follow what the best players are already doing, but instead, do something that is innovative and will be considered best class for users 46:31.
Ideally, creators should be rewarded for being ahead of the curve and providing something unique that others are not doing yet 46:46.
The key takeaway is to focus on creating content that is innovative, user-friendly, and ahead of the curve, rather than just following what others are doing 46:48.
The conversation concludes with an appreciation for the help and support provided to people, and an invitation to leave comments and look forward to the next edition of “Crawling Mondays” 47:01.